<_Ivo> agenda: http://wiki.xiph.org/index.php/MonthlyMeeting200702 --> j^ (n=j^@e178026068.adsl.alicedsl.de) has joined #xiphmeet What time is the meeting? <_Ivo> I believe about now. --> BjornW (n=BjornW@stilgar.xs4all.nl) has joined #xiphmeet <_Ivo> 18:00 UTC hi there, sorry for being late :/ <_Ivo> hello, and you aren't late _Ivo: hi, ok thought I was late. Isn't already 18:00 UTC? <_Ivo> I guess we'll have to wait for monty <_Ivo> yes, Bjorn <_Ivo> but not everyone is here yet, so the meeting can't begin yet _Ivo: ok, clear :) --> MikeS (n=msmith@core.fluendo.com) has joined #xiphmeet hi MikeS Heh, I knew lurking in #xiphmeet for the past several years would come in handy. :P <_Ivo> heh, poor thing could somebody set the topic? * Atamido looks at rillian. Would someone add "Status of mf3" to the meeting wiki page? --- rillian has changed the topic to: monthly meeting in progress | agenda http://wiki.xiph.org/index.php/MonthlyMeeting200702 <_Ivo> I read monty talking about that in #xiph earlier today; out of curiosity, what is mf3 the main xiph.org server <_Ivo> ah, motherfish are we having a meeting or not? * rillian is on a conference call and can only pay marginal attention <_Ivo> I hope so <_Ivo> shall we start without JM and Monty? <_Ivo> and ralph, it seems? I guess/ <_Ivo> alright, who wants to chair the meeting? * rillian nominates _Ivo <_Ivo> alright then * Atamido seconds. * BjornW seconds <_Ivo> the first item of the agenda is the aotuv merge with the official vorbis trunk <_Ivo> I guess that's something only Monty can answer, but are there any thoughts? Has the merge already occurred? <_Ivo> there was a merge of some or most of aoTuV Beta 2 <_Ivo> back in 2005, if I'm not mistaken <_Ivo> but aoTuV has now a stable release, labeled 1 <_Ivo> the HA community feels that the official trunk should use the new aoTuV has listening tests proved its clear superiority <_Ivo> and I mean "whose" and not "has" <_Ivo> the agenda's second topic is the Trac bug system <_Ivo> who's in charge of it? j^ <_Ivo> I believe the concensus in the last meeting (back in October) was that Trac should be replaced with bugzilla, because it's causing problems <_Ivo> or something in that regard <_Ivo> third topic is related with me <_Ivo> I'd like to know how I can get hosting of the SpreadOgg project under MF _Ivo: can you give a bit of background info on SpreadOgg? <_Ivo> SpreadOgg is my attempt at creating a project similar to SpreadFirefox to promote all of Xiph's projects <_Ivo> be it Vorbis, FLAC or XSPF It's an email trojan that installs Vorbis audio codecs on the client and then transcodes all MP3s to Vorbis. ;) _Ivo: ok and is there a plan which I can read/comment on/help with? Atamido: :) _Ivo: and what sort of hosting do you need? --> xiphmont (n=xiphmont@c-71-232-6-34.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) has joined #xiphmeet <_Ivo> rillian: I guess just some space and a domain name would do; apache, php, maybe a sql data base too --- xiphmont has changed the topic to: monthly meeting in progress | agenda http://wiki.xiph.org/index.php/MonthlyMeeting20070Hi, sorry, baby duty, lost track of time2 ARGH Is PHP on the web server? xchat, I hate you hi xiphmont --- xiphmont has changed the topic to: monthly meeting in progress | agenda http://wiki.xiph.org/index.php/MonthlyMeeting200702 <_Ivo> BjornW: if you'd like we can discuss this through e-mail later <_Ivo> welcome, monty _Ivo: ok, cool Atamido: mf3 has php and mysql Because, like, when you change channels, of course the keyboard focus should be the channel topic. It's, like, totally obvious! Ah, I thought it was Perl only. <_Ivo> good heavens, how would you want the wiki to work then? _Ivo: perhaps you should develop something until people.xiph.org and if it looks good we (or you) can buy a domain and set it up officially? s/until/on/ _Ivo: Aren't there Perl wikis? ;) <_Ivo> rillian: alright _Ivo: send me an ssh2 public key if you don't have a shell account <_Ivo> I don't believe I have either (or you can use http://svn.xiph.org/websites/spreadogg/ and host it on your own machine) hmm 'spreadogg' doesn't look so good without the camel caps <_Ivo> indeed xiphmont: can you comment on your interest in merging the aoTuV 1 release into the reference vorbis encoder? <_Ivo> ok then, I'll be discussing this through e-mail later with you rillian, so we can carry on the meeting 'k rillian: sure I would like to do so, honestly, but not as a blind merge. Int he past two merges I found code that was either malfunctioning or not doing what Aoyumi expected. So, the code review aspect was helpful to us both. That said, it's the only caveat; Aoyumi does good work and is happy to see us adopt it. <_Ivo> great to hear that said, it's a taks that requires uninterrupted time, something I don't have alot of. (wrt work, they're pressing me to get all the requires for PulseAudio done right now so we can ship it int he next fc test) I don't want to tackle tuning review when multitasking --> BjornW_ (n=BjornW@stilgar.xs4all.nl) has joined #xiphmeet <_Ivo> xiphmont: I don't suppose you are having a vacation any time soon no, just burned all my time off on paternity leave I'll get time for it. <_Ivo> that's great to hear In some whays I've been shorting Vorbis becasue I'm hedging toward Ghost. xiphmont: Ghost? <_Ivo> I never had a chance to ask: how's your family? is your child healthy? and is a girl or a boy? "Ghost: Because I don't like the name Vorbis II" xiphmont: ok, thanks The family is well, thank you for asking. His name is Denton Milo, after his grandfather. xiphmont: congrats Ghost is, for the record, pure vapor right now. It exists as nothing more than ideas and graphs. ah (Well, actually, we're all sick as dogs due to a stomach virus right now, but it's just a quick bug and we're getting better) <_Ivo> and that brings us to the next topic: status of projects <_Ivo> xiphmont: good, I recommend some good tea in large amounts we are the tea fiends, Sir :-) <_Ivo> that's very fine, sir <_Ivo> but don't add milk to it :) <_Ivo> there's an interest in the agenda regarding libogg2 <_Ivo> xiphmont: could you tell us about it? --> thomasvs (n=thomas@fedora/thomasvs) has joined #xiphmeet <-- BjornW has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) (if there were any questions for me; sorry, got pulled away to a meeting) --- BjornW_ is now known as BjornW <_Ivo> MikeS: you are in charge of the mailing lists, right? _Ivo: no. <_Ivo> oh ok MikeS: don't dissemble. you knew the admin password at some point I know the list moderator password. Which I think is the same, admittedly ;-) <_Ivo> someone expressed concern in the agenda that the mailing lists and the SVN are not stable <_Ivo> is anyone having problems? mf3 has had some recent troubles; I believe xiphmont is fixing (has fixed?) them jm has complained that they get gummed up a lot * BjornW has no issues with svn, it actually was pretty fast <_Ivo> my only annoyance with the lists is that there's no Reply-to: header xiphmont is pulling a backup before migrating the filesystem to raid1, for what that's worth <_Ivo> SVN seems fine to me the mailing lists get enormous amounts of spam in the moderation queue, and are lacking in moderators (the interface combines with the spam level to make moderating difficult and time consuming) _Ivo: we won't be changing the reply-to setup <_Ivo> any special reason? we used to have reply-to-list, people objected, it was changed some years back, there's been no reason to expect we'll have a change in consensus. <_Ivo> I see; not really a problem though The backups are pulled, raid build is in progress the bigger problem is a kernel bug causing spurious timeouts that disable DMA and bring disk throughput to screeching halt I've moved to 2.6.8 (latest debian stable kernel) to see if that improves things the problem Will Be Solved. <_Ivo> alright, shall we move to the next topic? <_Ivo> it's regarding the recent Ambisonics discussions and how well it affects the projects involved (mainly Vorbis) well, we support 4-channel ambisonics like they were talking about it would be cool if someone did a tuned mode for them completely uncoupled, yes. and yes I'd like to do this because I'd like Ghosts's support for ambisonics to be more fundamental... that is, a coupling system better suited to it fundamentally. I thought ambisonics was spherical harmonics. Are the channels really that correlated? xiphmont: did you agree with my out-of-ass statement that the spherical harmonic expansion wins somewhere around 8 channels? derf_: they are in a single ambisonic mic recording rillian: I didn;t think that hard about it. derf-: ideally yes, not sure about practice. which is for directional mics in a tetahedron run through a really simple analogue mixer I didn't understand what they were on about with phase though so maybe I'm confused there is arcana here that needs to be discussed offline it sounds like I would imagine even the four-channel spherical will surpass 5.1 in many ways. but not in in-plane directionality but yes, let's move on I think we've definitely been side-tracked, yes. and everyone encourage the ambisonic people :) <_Ivo> I'm working on it :) I have an inteerupt, back in a sec <_Ivo> anyone wants to report the status of the big projects? <_Ivo> just for the record, I guess Icecast: moribund! (but supported; just not really any active development going on, but not much needed either) theora: remains stalled vorbis-tools: kfish committed a lot of the patches that had accumulated in trac he might even do a release we should actually push out a -tools _release_ amen let's ask him if he's going to do that, or otherwise one of the rest of us can <-- BjornW has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) ogg mng: I did a bit of work on that in december --> BjornW (n=BjornW@stilgar.xs4all.nl) has joined #xiphmeet oggplay: shane stephens (shans in #theora) is developing a stand-alone player library and firefox plugin <_Ivo> rillian: I thought it had been dropped <_Ivo> ogg mng, that is it sounds like we have a chance of actually getting this shipped in firefox the deadline for firefox 3.0 is this summer so everyone push on that rillian: would this allow us to use ogg in firefox without java? <_Ivo> Conrad was pushing Ogg into Firefox, I heard it's absolutely our best opportunity at the moment to improve adoption <_Ivo> indeed BjornW: yes. native playback of (at least) ogg vorbis and theora inside any firefox browser <_Ivo> I wonder if Debian would be interesed in doing that in their Firefox fork rillian: that would rock! <_Ivo> so the code could be submited back to mozilla http://svn.annodex.net/liboggplay/trunk/ download it and make sure it works on your system I'm worried that shane's underestimating the difficulty of doing synchronised multimedia cross-platform, even limiting it to only vorbis+theora in ogg. help out any way you can MikeS: me too, but there's only one way to find out So I'm somewhat dubious about it being a robust system, but I like the idea rillian: what would you suggest for a non C/C++ programmer to help? <_Ivo> BjornW: testing _Ivo: yes. first we do a stand alone player, then we do a firefox plugin, then we submit it for inclusion in the firefox codebase, then we push for shipping it in the default build BjornW: if you can do html or javascript, integration testing _Ivo: ok, can we put the info on the wiki? and evangelism rillian: I can <_Ivo> BjornW: of course packaging, artwork, website support rillian: where can I find the information about this? there's lots you can do the svn url is all there is right now talk to shans in #theora about other ways to help and start a wiki page I can also spread the news in the Dutch Floss community and see if some people are willing to help out, but we need to put the relevant info on the wiki first <_Ivo> do that, please <_Ivo> does anyone other than Monty know what's the status for libogg2? unchanged needs api review and probably some more code before it's good to release I don't consider it a top priority right now libogg2 doesn't solve any proximate problems. <_Ivo> well, for one it adds support for Writ No? jm had an idea for improving the ogg<->codec interface in the future so it's easier to use our reference implementations with other containers MikeS: I think he means that it's a pre-requisite for concurrent-multiplexing of discontinuous streams. oh, maybe. _Ivo: I never dropped ogg mng, I just haven't worked on it much. *shrug* I still think it's a good idea <_Ivo> that's good to hear <_Ivo> the Mozilla team has a dislike of MNG, though sadly so <_Ivo> or that was the consensus when they removed MNG support from Fx <_Ivo> yes <_Ivo> well, next item: contributors and webmasters back I think I convinced silvia to use it instead of ogg spots though :) <_Ivo> spots? http://wiki.xiph.org/OggSpots rillian: why not use xspf? <_Ivo> thank you um, other project status BjornW: for? rillian: oggspots speex is shaping up well for the 1.2 release jm seems happy with the changes and is recommending the beta of the stable release <_Ivo> BjornW: XSPF is a playlist format rillian: I just glanced over oggspots and it seems overkill <_Ivo> we are talking of timed data inside an Ogg container BjornW: spots is supposed to be embedded in a multiplexed ogg stream. think slideshow jm has also been working on a BSD resampling library (currently inside speex, but useful elsewhere) rillian: why would this need to be embedded? this came of out FOMS because currently there's only a GPL option which is holding back more infrastructural audio projects like pulseaudio BjornW: people want to see a and record a webstream of slides+audio+video I think the float implementation more-or-less works now jm being a coding fiend <_Ivo> Ogg MNG and Spots reminds me of my crazy idea of "FlashOgg" flac has a new release out (gstreamer has a decent-quality LGPL resampler, but it's not top quality, and it's unreasonably slow right now) thomasvs: wouldn't be easier to create this within a playlist instead? MikeS: thanks, I failed to remember that clearly enough to mention :) BjornW: depends on what you're doing BjornW: how would a playlist give me one and only one file to play back ? you'll probably want an ajax player for web use anyway but it's nice to have a single file with everything in it thomasvs: yes, the playlist. BjornW: the playlist does not contain the audio and video also audio+slides is (often) much smaller than audio+video <_Ivo> but the playlists loads several files, Bjorn BjornW: I think you understand what we're saying but do not want to see it as a solution :) BjornW: in any case, this is no different than the idea behind annodex for example thomasvs: Yes, I wonder what the arguments are ;) BjornW: the argument is quite simply to have one and only one webstream or download/file arkadini as added experimental export support to the quicktime plugins BjornW: just as audio and video are put in one and only one file typically <_Ivo> thomasvs: speaking of which, what is the status of annodex? so one can finally create ogg files straight out of macos applications. yay!!! _Ivo: let's not jump topics, rillian was trying to move away from oggspots to something else thomasvs: My argument would be that xspf allows easier access to lesser code guru's :) I'm planning a release in a couple of days, so more people get a chance to test it thomasvs: might make it more easily for adaption? illi is now working at microsoft, so the dshow plugins will probably not get much maintenance for a while how... ironic BjornW: possibly, and feel free to do so xiphmont: quite :) BjornW: but I don't think it solves a problem that people are trying to solve with oggmng/oggspots/... :-) and, we have permission to relicense the core parts of libao as some people have requested what do we want to do that for? thomasvs: ok, I just entered this discussion so perhaps I don't have all the info ;) oh, people want it. ok. Why do people want to use libao? Shouldn't we discourage that? We should. By asking for money. MikeS: *shrug* it's one of the abstraction layer options I wish at least one of them worked well. might be a good bridge until pulseaudio is more mature <_Ivo> discourage libao? I thought it was useful for cross platform audio well libao doesn't do enough for most purposes, and is unmaintained. There are no compelling reasons to suggest using it anyway, some people have asked because they're doing the infrastructural thing and want to ship half-free systems <_Ivo> oh In my official role at RedHat, I've been telling people who want guaranteed API stability/reliability to use OSS. Becasue we're going to be supporting it forever. I guess my attitude is that if it's not good enough and we're not going to fix it, we should at least help by making the code more free <_Ivo> xiphmont: is RedHat against ALSA? that explains why jrb was telling me they promote the OSS API :) I thought everyone was using alsalib ...we're about to be shipping OSS and ALSA enu for Pulse. emu MikeS: that only works on linux alsa is a kernel driver and should never have been anything more. You have to build a Real System in userspace. rillian: true, but OSS isn't THAT much more so unless someone shouts, when I get around to it I plan to do a new release with the core and a few plugins (oss, alsa, pulseaudio) BSD LGPL is the other option OSS looks very much like the APIs offered in Solaris and the BSDs as well. rillian: I still don't think you should be giving away something for nothing. The sun API turns out to differ surprisingly much if you try to do more complex things than straight pre-recorded playback of audio-only with it. Anyway, the various 'cross-platform' audio apis out there manage to be useless, buggy or both. rillian: well, fine, if you're going to maintain it. derf_: that was certainly the original reasoning it's another tribe decision MikeS: true. I said 'looks like' It's not like we're trying to drive adoption like we are with the codecs. libao has the amusing 'If I can dlopen libesound, they must be using esd, so I won;t look for anything else' bug. there's what I think of as the 'redhat' tribe who want to sell services on top of free software and they want everything to be LGPL I have no objection to libao if someone's maintaining it (I won't suggest anyone use it, nor will I use it myself, but I don't object to other people using it if someone's maintaining it) and there's the 'fsf' tribe who want everything to be free, and failing that you can pay through the nose ok, can we move on? yes sure _Ivo: anything left? <_Ivo> yes <_Ivo> is there a need for webmasters? <_Ivo> that's one of the last items probably? libXSPF? I belief Sebastian is going to release it as GPL? <_Ivo> rillian: that's probably been taken cared of oh good <_Ivo> BjornW: Sebastian's library is not part of Xiph, and its license its too restrictive _Ivo: ok we've generally avoided GPL releases of libraries (tools are a different matter) <_Ivo> but I'm in talk with Sebastian, asking him to donate his libSpiff to Xiph MikeS: and dual licenses? BjornW: I don't think we have any, but nor do we have a fundamental objection to them MikeS: ok, I was just curious <_Ivo> the contributors item: any idea on where to recruit some developers? local pubs? MikeS: :) No, not really. <_Ivo> MikeS: are there any near MIT? we have developers show up now and then, and when there's something going on and there's interesting work to do, they stick. _Ivo: I don't know that are at all well. I've turned down a few people in the last six months only becasue I didn't have time for them :-( <_Ivo> xiphmont: what did they need? maybe we should focus on spreadOgg in combination with the Firefox plugin. That might attract a lot of people? <_Ivo> well, SpreadOgg isn't for developers really they wanted to help (specifically, on Ghost) <_Ivo> but the OggPlay sure hits the spot <_Ivo> xiphmont: oh <_Ivo> regarding the webmaster item: I'm available to admin whatever website is in need of help <_Ivo> wiki, especially. it's full of bloody spambots _Ivo: I know, but it would make them aware of the fact that the project is aiming high. Doing work on a high-profile project might make it more interesting for devs to work on. Besides the tech challenges. ok, time for me to go, sorry <-- MikeS has quit ("Leaving") <_Ivo> BjornW: if you are available, I'd like to enlist your help with SpreadOgg _Ivo: I'm willing to help out as much as I can :) <_Ivo> thanks, I'll be sure to give you a call soon _Ivo: perfect, you got my email address? <_Ivo> just to be sure, you are the Bjorn from the XSPF list, right? _Ivo: yep <_Ivo> I do, then _Ivo: Ok, I'm off now. Looking forward to work on this. Later <_Ivo> well, I guess there's no other topics left to discuss <_Ivo> did anyone log the meeting? <-- BjornW (n=BjornW@stilgar.xs4all.nl) has left #xiphmeet I have my scrollback, but got here late I have the whole thing.